~ DEMO & FLASH INDEX ~
NOTE: This section contains old posts on DEMO written starting just days before WNI began its first DEMO Crackdown in late January 98. These posts should be seen NOT as providing answers, but as first attempts to ask the right questions. In May 98, after WNI learned accounts could be hacked, we lost access to DEMO using the GoTo until the STOCKS method was discovered that October.
From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Group: alt.discuss.webtv.mafia Subject: Need To Explore DEMO Space Date: Fri, Jan 23, 1998 DEMO SPACE may be lame, but it is a network curiousity and in true Hacker sprit needs to be explored. Are e-mail notes and Fav files I find in DEMO Space originating just from someone using the same server as I? Or is it truely nationwide? If you have any DEMO hacker experience and are not just using it as a place to hide as you throw insults at others, please post your observations here! If you are able to modify the MSG below, please state your server address and the state you're from.
From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Group: alt.discuss.webtv.mafia Subject: << DEMO MODE IS NOT SAFE!! >> Date: Sat, Jan 24, 1998 Another example of how DEMO is really linked to our own service... If you try any of the javascript tricks from DEMO, say to access "setup/accounts".... whose names do you get? They are yours! Those registered to your box!
DEMO may exist as a seperate entity, but the only way it can be accessed is through a registered Webtv box. Therefore everything we do here leaves some sort of electronic trail which leads back to our boxes. Damn! It was fun. Actually, that's fine with me. Some real nasty assholes hide out here and they need to be put in their place.
From: ulTRAX@webtv.net
Group:alt.discuss.webtv.mafia Subject: << DEMO MODE IS NOT SAFE!! >> Date: Sat, Jan 24, 1998 I tried going to TalkCity and indeed my name was there. Damn! I also tried a privacy check on my server and IP and that too was identified. AND WHY NOT? It's nice to think that we can post from here and be anonymous. I now suspect we can't. There have to be IP links back to our Webtv unit else we'd never get a response. TCP/IP is what makes the web work. Webtv goes further and links our IPs to our boxes probably through the Silicon ID #. It's not like we have an AOL type password. Even if we post on a NG, there are too many links embeded in the system that we may not have easy access to, but can be read under certain circumstances... like when a PC user does an e-mail route or a ping check. We can access some of that info when we get returned mail.... but there is much more we never see. Then there's server/system logs. Just cause we Webtv types can't easily access that info from a NG post, does not mean it's not there for someone, like Webtv, to access it once they find a need to... like when they get alot of complaints. I'm going to do more research, but as of this date, I'd advise all those who misuse DEMO to hope that their offensive NG postings fade quickly and that none of them were forwarded to Guardian@Corp or what ever the webtv gestapo is called.
From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Group: alt.discuss.webtv.mafia Subject: Re: << DEMO MODE >>eol Date: Sat, Jan 24, 1998 That would explain why there are so many "purple" posts in DEMO that I haven't read yet.... Somebody's been in my house!! Actually, I guess this is a community house... msg: please sound off your general location so we can find out how this demo account works
From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Group: alt.discuss.webtv.mafia Subject: <> Date: Sat, Jan 24, 1998 [NOTE: 7-99 this plan was pretty misguided lol] The first step in defining the limits of DEMO Space is to know your own server's IP address. Only then, when we're all able to share that information, will we at least be able to determine whether DEMO Space is just tied to one's local server or is a larger commuity space. There is a utility at http://www.helie.com/BrowserCheck Look under "remote address" and it'll give you your IP address. The first 3 sets of numbers will always be the same... the last is a "floating" IP which changes each time you log on. Looking forward to your observations
From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Group: alt.discuss.webtv.mafia Subject: Re: About The Demo File Date: Sat, Jan 24, 1998 Thanks for responding with some intelligent observations. As for my DEMO Space... I have not found any discarded letters. But over night someone did create a new folder.... pics from alt.fat.babes or somesuch. Home town is always set for Palo Alto and I can not reset it. If anyone gets into their FAVs and finds a file called Guardian.... it has a utility in it that revels how much information your browser give out to any site you visit... including you server's IP address. Maybe who ever visits can creat a FAV folder with the first 2 sets of numbers. Mine are 207.79. (don't want to give away that much about who we are.... but at least we can find out if we're on the same server or not) I should probably do a NG search and try to determine just when demo@webtv first showed up. Maybe it wasn't discovered that long ago and hasn't been explored. On the other hand, maybe we're just reinventing the wheel.
From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Group: alt.discuss.webtv.mafia Subject: Re << DEMO MODE IS NOT SAFE!! >> Date: Sat, Jan 24, 1998 I noticed that when I returned to DEMO Space the NG posts that had read were still "purple" indicating that the URL Cache based on sites I had visited (or postings I had read) was intact.... not reset after I left DEMO. DEMO Space is obviously a community area.... but the new task is to find out whether our "community" space extends any further than our local server. 207.79.
From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Group: alt.discuss.webtv.mafia Subject: <> Date: Sat, Jan 24, 1998 It appears that two users can not share the same DEMO space at the same time... yet others have been here and have made changes in Favs etc.. So there have to be a number of DEMO user accounts. So why do I keep getting back to the same one I visited before... with my Favs and URL cache? Maybe what we all need to do is pick a time... some days from now and all log into DEMO and just make note of what we find. I've started to include the note below (which most of you in DEMO will probably not see in your mail-sig window) with hopes that other DEMO users will record their server IP address (not the whole thing, mind you). Just enough to determine if DEMO space is related just to one's server. Hi... Fellow DEMO Explorer. Please use the Browser utility in FAVs. (www.helie.com/BrowserCheck) Find your "remote address" from the chart and write here the first 2 sets of numbers. Are we using the same server? 207.7
From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Group: alt.discuss.webtv.mafia Subject: <> Date: Sun, Jan 25, 1998 I tried an experiment. A friend of mine who is connected to the same server (but who owns a classic box) and I ( a plus owner) tried to log on to DEMO at the same. I keep getting the same Favs I left there before.... he got something entirely different. He found a number of letters in the "sent mail" including the current "child pronography" post in the mail-sig area. Now I log onto DEMO and some one is claiming to be on the same server but from South Illinois. (see below). Anyway, we here are trying to systematically explore DEMO Land. If you have the true Hacker Spirit (and are not just a wanna bes) Join the effort. DEMO EXPLORERS List the first 3 sets of numbers of your IP address here. (The last 2 digits are irrevelant since they "float", change every time you log on to your server.) Also add the region of the state you are in. Your IP address can be checked here. 207.79.35.58 207.79.35.35 so. IP 207.79.35.xx Please List more!
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.madness
Date: Jan. 28, 1998
From: seagrave@webtv.net
REPORT ON OLD DEMO (1-28-98)
JAN 28: FINAL DEMO UPDATE: DEMO IS NOT JUST WEIRD, IT'S MORE WEIRD THAN WE CAN IMAGINE.
IN STORE DEMO: I've confirmed that the Demo account we "hack" into is NOT the same as the demo accounts found in stores. Just what it is... is unknown. Stores have special demo retail accounts called "Client 1.3 Retail, version 1091". They have their own retail upgrades and boot ups (version 105)... as well as special features designed to sell the product.
As with our own home accounts, retail accounts do not contain free floating elements. If you set up Fav folders or leave a letter in the mailroom, they'll be there next month. Store demos have SurfWatch activated and e-mail is not permitted. Obviously there is no SurfWatch on our demo.... and we can e-mail.
I also learned from a Jan 9 98 letter that Webtv has removed some features from the retail accounts to "make room" for features from the fall upgrade. (Actually, I bet they removed the "surf spots" because they were so obnoxious and did not want potential customers to be turned off.) Also gone was Real Audio 1, and SSL... Smart Card. It is possible to "hack" into the demo we know from one of these store retail accounts. While at a Sears I created a new DEMOLAND #17 Fav Folder and I was able to access it (by accident) at Circuit City. It is also possible to e-mail from these in- store demo files.... but, as was said, not from the store's retail accounts. NO LOCAL SERVERS: Webtv has only local access numbers to their own server(s), Demo Space is, thus, entirely a network phenomenon... and not related to local servers. In fact we all have the same IP address: 207.79.35.xx !! [at the time the belief was there were numerous local WTV servers] DEMO WONDERLAND: As was said, any given Demo Account is NOT an integrated whole... like our own user accounts. While we may keep returning to a certain demo Fav file, Mail-sig, or Saved mail section, they are actually "free floating". Which of these we happen to access depends on the luck of the draw and how many people are logged on Demo at any given time. When there are a great number of people logged on, the situation can be comic. One can leave Favs returning a few seconds later to find all new folders!! No, someone probably did not erase the folders that were just there... you just entered another Fav entirely. MULTIPLE USERS: Two (or more?) users can be in the same window (say at Favs) at the same time. But since at any given time we're only actually using what's loaded into our box's RAM, we might not notice what the other person is doing at their box unless they enter a command (to "save" or whatever) and we constantly "reload" the page. In this way, new files might be added to the Fav window almost right before our eyes. I also noticed a new Fav folder appear. At one point I was posting to a NG when the page suddenly jerked downward as someone else wrote something in the Mail-sig section. How much conflict the network can take is an open question. But I suspect the main "conflict" will be between users as one posts and the other deletes. It must be infuriating! LOL HOW MANY FREE-FLOATING ELEMENTS? Just how many free floating Demo Fav files, Mail sigs windows, and saved mail Mailrooms, there are... is another mystery. I have tried to systematically number each as I found them but the efforts may have been thwarted by mischievous miscreants. I did once go to favs to find FOUR(!) of the DEMO LAND folders I seem to have created. I suspect, however, some were fakes. None the less, I now believe that even individual folders are autonomous. I returned to Favs to find 4 folders. Two seemed to be mine.... in that they contained the same files I placed there. I decided to watch and repeatedly reload the page. Sure enough, another folder appeared! Not only does it seem that even the Fav window can be shared, but Fav folders can drift about the webtv network on their own. Where they land, who knows. Weird!! NEWS GROUPS: Another area to explore is when we post to various newsgroups. It seems if we begin to post to a group but don't "send", the post will be there next time we visit. I have changed users and do not have access to what I wrote in Demo. This raises the question of how many users can post and save in Demo to the same NG? If there is but one Demo "unsent" box... it lends it self to the possibility that somewhat secret communications can be set up between Demo users. All that they have to do is pick an obscure NG (like bee-keeping) and post there. Your buddies will always know to look. This beats the mail room where anyone can find and delet a messege. But, it all hinges on there being but one Demo file and files being stored on the server, not in one's box. At this time I just don't know. CHAT: Someone once pointed out that even if we are in Demo, our real names appear when we go to chat. This is true and suggests that aspects of Demo are still very much tied to our own personal accounts. This makes sense.... after all, our boxes are only terminals on a network and even when we think we are anonymous, the network must have the information to get data back to our box and no one elses. COOKIES: I haven't fully explored cookies yet. I do know that there are are different demo cookie files. I've always tended to get the same one, but found another while I was at a store. These different cookie files may provide the best way to determine just how many Demo homes there are. Unlike fav folders and mailroom #s, cookie lists can't be messed with and will persist for months. URL CACHE: I noticed that when returned to some NGs, some of the postings were already "read". I think they were all read by myself... though someone once posted that s/he thought someone else had been there. But, isn't the URL cache stored in each box... not on the server?? If so then the box has built into it a spare cache for Demo. This is not the same as saying each box has a built in Demo user. As was said... the best we can seen to do is access the various aspects of a Demo account off the webtv server.... not a real account. MAIL TIME STAMP: Who knows why it reads as it reads. But remember... the mailroom we mail from is not linked to our actual location. It free floats and we access one that happens to be free at the time. IS DEMOLAND TRUELY ANONYMOUS? Not if it's all tied to one Master Webtv server. Just as Webtv can access all our account info and track down missing NG posts and e-mail, they can, if they want, easily track down those who abuse Demo. I would have predicted that this would have been possible even if there were numerous local severs. But now that I know there is but one (or several operating with a single IP)... it has to be that much easier. After all, all traffic within the server must be addressed if it's to get information from one box to another... or to direct info to and from the internet itself. How it's done must go back to the Silicon Serial ID# (SSID) which seems to be the master ID to which our account and all our server files are attatched. (if you change boxes the key to webtv's linking your old files to the new box is your SSID. You can find that # by using the 411 poweroff code.) I'm certainly glad that I have done nothing but explore DEMO. Much of the above is educated speculation. I look forward to all you comments and suggestions on this report as well as future areas of interest....
From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Group:alt.discuss.webtv.hacking,alt.discuss.n2play,alt.discuss.webtv.madness,alt.discuss.webtv.thieves,alt.discuss.webtv.secrets Subject: [[[[[ WTV DEMO HISTORY ]]]]] Date:Thu, May 14, 1998 As we can gather from the name, DEMO was obviously set up for demonstration purposes. The only difference is that the method we use to get into DEMO was never meant to be the official way to get in. If someone was doing a presentation and needed a quick account, they apparently would register as we would if we had a new box, and go to a section under payment, call promotional (or somesuch.... it's been a long time since I set up my box). There, they would enter special promotional code. I do wonder if that original DEMO still exists as an unrestricted account... while all we get is kiddieland. I suspect that the need for demonstration accounts has not ended. Maybe WTV has decided to set up real, but temporary, accounts instead. If anyone watched Bill Gates on CSpan the other day, the account he used was called Bill_G@webtv.net. In the mailbox was the customary letter of welcome from Steve Perlman. It was dated a few days before the presentation. My take on this is the account was real, but temporary... then again maybe it still exists. I have not tried to write. When we go into DEMO we are actually hacking the server to gain access to an account OUTSIDE our normal six. However, most of us just never saw it as anything more than a trick. We were very wrong. Word is that DEMO may not be with us very much longer. DEMO has long been a thron in WTV's side and they will either try to delete it entirely or limit the use of the GoTo window in the wtv-head-waiter stage thereby preventing access. [[this turned out NOT to be true... there were other ways to get to DEMO]]
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Sun, Dec 13, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net NEW vs OLD DEMO This may be a bit dated.... but I was struck by the difference between the old and new DEMO. I'm not takling about WTV's attempts to turn it into a kiddie land where nothing works.... but... Back in the old days DEMO was accessed as any account was.... though a login process where we picked up what must have been an IP list for Demo. But the last time I was in Demo.... I did NOT have to go through that process... and the Show Service IP lists were identical to what I had in my user... since I never really logged off that user. There was much more of a blending of the two accounts. Sometimes I'd get my mail list there but all of the letters said they had been discarded. At other times I get an empty Demo mail box. So.... what and where is Demo? Is it merely in the box? Is it on the servers?
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Mon, Dec 14, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Re: NEW vs OLD DEMO a test The old DEMO did have its own Cookie List... I had not checked that. But then it must have also had its own Cookie IP. The old DEMO could also be shared by numerous people at the same time.... One experiment we could do to see if we are accessing something in the server or whether the New DEMO is merely some forgotten code on our box is for us all to create a folder in DEMO and keep looking to see if we ever find anyone else's.
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Tue, Dec 15, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net DEMO IS WEIRD OK.... a bit of a rehash. But I'm still trying to sort things out. So we have the same IPs in both our user as we do in Demo. Tons of people have these same IPs. Question is.... why when we access our DEMO Cookie list... is it different from our user list? In part the answer is clear... that we are no longer in our own user. But what user are we in? Does DEMO have a User ID#? Since we no longer have to go though a login process going into DEMO.... is it still a seperate account "out there" in the Network? Or is there something in all of our boxes that is designed to go to DEMO?
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Wed, Dec 16, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Re: DEMO ID?What I meant about not going though a login process is that when we used to go to the old DEMO we accessd as we did another user... going though the WTV Logo phase where we got a set of IPs etc. Whether this was necessary... who knows. Maybe we didn't know there were shortcuts available since the old method was so reliable. My question is why, if we are sharing the same IP List... are we suddenly getting different info back... say for our Cookie List? The request to the server identifying who we are has suddenly changed. That DEMO ID, if you will, has to be an inherent part of every box. As for what DEMO was set up for.... It's my understanding that DEMO was just that... a DEMO account that could be used to demo the box. I don't know how it was accessed... probably by a PowerOff code. If so that would explain why it's something in each box... but that's speculation. There has been a trend in retailing over the past 10 years that electronics have built in demo modes.... It makes sense to just include retailing demos (or whatever) into all off the shelf products. For example, all Pluses have a flashy built in demo. What's different about the DEMO account is that it was something that allowed the box to access the server... not just put on a fancy light show. We were never supposed to access it in the manner that we did. In essence, and this was not always clearly understood by many, by accessing DEMO we were essentially hacking the server. We had broken free of the constraints placed on us and were accessing something OUTSIDE our accounts.
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Thu, Dec 17, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Re: Don't anyone post anything about DEMO!!!! I suspect that WTV knows more about DEMO then we do... After all they have been busy shuting it down since last Jan. after I wrote that first post I don't think there even is a new DEMO... only new ways to get to the old DEMO. I also think it's just something built into every box..... and as long as it can't be abused (remember how bad things were when people had could mail from there?) WTV probably does not care. On the other hand I agree that no one should post any info how to get there... nor EVER AGAIN post info on new ways to access WTV URLs or ways to get the JS code reader to work. Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Thu, Dec 17, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Re: Don't anyone post anything aboutThe list of servers is intresting.... but I don't think your conclusions hold up. Back in Jan I planted 17-18 different numbered folders in DEMO Favs.... I kept doing so as long as I did not come across an old numbered folder. There was some attrition as some were no doubt deleted by those who thought it was cool to ruin experiments... but I do know that many more than just 3 folders survived in the course of the first few days... indicating to me that there were at least 10 DEMOs.... and most likely more. I believe that DEMO is a feature in the box... and seems to be able to piggy back on our IP list. While we know that the Testdrive accounts are all run off 1 or 2 servers... there is no reason to think DEMO is run off of special servers. It seems to run off our production IP list. That we can access different DEMOs is probaby more a function of getting different productions IPs for its various functions.... Otherwise we are left looking for a hidden DEMO IP list that can change but is not on the Show Services list.
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Thu, Dec 17, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net DEMO "in the box" When I say that I suspect DEMO is in each of our boxes what I mean is this... Im not saying DEMO is an account simulation stored in the box.... but sort of a generic account that can was probably meant to be accessed by a poweroff code. As such it is merely set up to properly communicate with the server to bring up WTV pages. Get enough people in the various DEMOs at the same time and it may become comic. Because all the pages/features are still on the server until we fetch them.... WTV can shut them down...
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Sun, Dec 20, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net DEMO and IPs Many of us are wondering why we often keep getting the same DEMO over and over while never seeming to get into the others we know exist. One theory was that it had something to do with the IP list.... or that there might be some special DEMO servers. I just finished the first comparison of 2 DEMO IP lists..... The lists were not left over from the cache of my main user. ALL IPs changed with the exception of: wtv-* wtv-star wtv-notices wtv-setup If it wasn't for the fact that I know we had been able to access many different DEMOs in the past I'd almost tend to believe that either: 1: they are linked to one of the remaining IPs... or 2: that there is a DEMO ID in one's box that can find it's own files on different servers.... just as we can find our own files. Maybe only if there are too many people on that DEMO do we get passed off to the next available one. Just a thought.
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Mon, Dec 21, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Re: DEMO and IPs (VoinX) Who know's whether DEMO has an ID as do our accounts? I don't. I'm only assuming that there is some mechenism that allows the server to tell requests coming from our accounts apart from those in DEMO. I further suspect that there is some way that we keep going back to the same DEMO.... But this may not hold up over time. Last winter it seemed that all the elements that made up DEMO were free to float about. Anyway.. there very well may be some sort of DEMO ID that allows a person to keep going back to the same Cookie List despite the Cookie IP. Our acounts do it. Why not DEMO?
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Tue, Dec 22, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net POST YOUR DEMO COOKIE LIST As long as this [DEMO] has blown up in our faces thanks to idiots who posted info they should not have... we might as well finally try to get a count of the number of DEMOs there are. I suggest using the Cookie list since it can NOT be tampered with as Fav files can. Plus I still expect that the individual pages (FAVs, MAIL, etc) may take on a life of their own and begin to drift between DEMOs. So trying to ID what DEMO you are actually in when nothng may stay the same is pointless. Please make sure there is a COOKIE link in all the FAV folders so people can use them regardless where the FAV folder ends up. If you can't take a video of the Cookie list just copy down the first line. C&P will not work on the Cookie list.... for some reason.
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Wed, Dec 23, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Re: POST YOUR DEMO COOKIE LISTDon't assume that just because you are in the same DEMO as others that all the elements that make up DEMO are the same. I apparently found a new DEMO today.... new Mail and FAVs.... but the Cookie List was the same! This can mean that: 1: someone deleted everything 2: the mail and FAVs decoupled from the Cookie List. Odd as this may seem, this CAN happen!
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Re: Demo Hostnames First... it's never been established that there are special DEMO servers. I personally think it'd be pointless since WTV would be running servers for what purpose? To support a discontinued service? If you take any of the hundreds of WTV IPs you will find that they ALL have DNS names. My favorite is daffy.daily.webtv.net
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Sat, Dec 26, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Same DEMO Cookie List, at least so far. At this point I don't know how any DEMOs there are since the only ways to tell are looking at the elements that could be tampered with: FAVs Mail, Sig. I keep finding myself in what seem to be new DEMOs... since they have no files.... or files I don't recognize. But so far the Cookie list has always been the same.
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Sun, Dec 27, 1998 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net SEVEN DEMOs SO FAR By my count people have posted Cookie Lists from 7 different DEMOs. I do not doubt there may be more. As for some XXX Cookies... they may be left over from the days when there were no restictions on the DEMO accounts. Keep those DEMO lists coming!
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Mon, Jan 4, 1999 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net DEMO COUNT TO DATE: 12 Here is a list of DEMO Cookie files based on all your postings to date. Thanks for all your cooperation! Remember, what I'm looking for is the first line from the cookie list. Feel free to add any new ones you may come across. If you can videotape it and post a PIC, all the better. disney/yahoo/sportzone talkcity/calvertschool/newscom gtplacer.global/doubleclick ecwfc(?)/delphi/excite webcrawler/excite.excite search.com/geocities/movielink tripod/imgis dmn/doubleclick/webcrawler goto/amazon/deathclock sportszone/tvgen/nascar abc/egreeting/coloring.com tripod/talkcity/preferences
Group: alt.discuss.webtv.hacking Date: Wed, Jan 6, 1999 From: ulTRAX@webtv.net Re: DEMO Sucks! Larster@webtv.net wrote "DEMO SUCKS! I mean really! Who really gives a shit about it? The frikin thing never did work right! and what was right? Its a complete waste of time!!!! Nothing to loose! nothing to gain! lets forget about it, and move on!" Spoken like a true hedonist. At its best DEMO was merely a fully functioning account..... great for the kiddies who wanted to bypass parental restrictions and mail bomb annoymously. Now it's pretty worthless.... except for the fact that it's there... and exploring it not only tells us something about the WTV network but the process of learning to explore is a worthy end unto itself. After all, given all the upgrades.... most of what we know may be obsolete in 4-5 months. But those who learn to think critically stand the best chance of overcoming obstacles WTV throws in our path. I also regret that in your casual dismisal of DEMO you fail to appeciate that it is the ONLY time where we are operating outside the security constraints imposed upon us by the Client. If you weren't so caught up in your own negativity, you might also appreciate that to get to DEMO is to hack the Network. I bet those who rememember how hacking accounts was done can find reasons to appreciate DEMO even if you can't.